Q & A With Khaled Ali

Q What are the most important problems we have with our education system, and how can we solve them practically, given that various development initiatives in the past have not proven successful? A There are two problems: an easy one and a hard one. The easy problem is resources; the resources allocated to education in the national budget are very low. I hope [resources] can reach 15% like Brazil where 5% of is dedicated to scientific research and 10% to education. If we are able to achieve this, we will succeed in building a respectable infrastructure for education. The other problem is the hard one: How can we reform our education system and develop the curricula, because there is a political and social conflict in this last bit that is very dangerous. I believe we should deal with all of the state’s institutions as national institutions. It isn’t normal that every political [faction] that comes along wants to change things to accommodate their ideologies. Education and curricula reform are national issues that needs contributions from the whole society towards a common vision. Q Practically, though, how do we implement this reform in our education system? A  It isn’t a problem of implementing the reform, it is a question of the basis on which we change the curricula. There is a conflict now about making reforms based on religion. Many teachers and experts have proposed ways to develop and reform our education system, including having more than one teacher in each class, or having a teacher and an assistant; dedicating a bigger part of the day to interactive learning as opposed to memorizing so as to give students more time for creativity. There were also propositions to cut down on homework and implement a liberal learning system so students can think and be creative. There are many propositions, but I think the bigger problem is reforming curricula under a societal consensus. Al Azhar offers religious education so the government education should be secular. This is why you shouldn’t be surprised when you find that Salafists are very concerned with heading the education committees at the People’s Assembly and the Shura Council, and that they are fighting over the Ministry of Education. Q Many have concerns about our national security, be it an internal danger or danger coming from outside our borders. To what extent do you agree? A We are in an unfortunate situation. Sudan was divided into two countries and we don’t know how to deal with either of them. Our situation with the Nile Basin countries is also very bad. Libya is turning into little countries, and there is constant weapon smuggling on the Libyan borders. Ever since the revolution started, Israeli military experts have been talking about preparing for a future war with Egypt. There are now Israeli forces in the west [of Israel], although they had withdrawn as part of the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel. We are in an inflamed situation. But if you ask me what the biggest issue is, I would tell you we need to wage a war against poverty, ignorance and illiteracy. We should be concerned with building this country and not drift into conflicts that will make us forget the important and bigger internal issues we have. We need to solve our internal conflicts first, not be dragged into external issues. Q Which countries should we be strengthening our ties with in this upcoming period? A  We really need to start drawing our maritime boundaries [to secure revenues] of LE 200 billion from oil and natural gas wells that we are leaving to Israel and Cyprus because we are not exerting any efforts to draw these boundaries. We also need to deal with African countries, including Libya, Sudan and the Nile Basin countries, in a different way and stop feeling superior to them; we can’t keep demeaning [them]. We need to start looking at [Nile Basin] nations as partners and at the Nile as a source of life and not a source of conflict. We should deal with them as equals because this is what makes [Egypt gain their respect]. We should also stay away from the idea of legal conflict and that this is our historical right. Framing it in legalese means the fight will continue. We should also start looking at economic, cultural and educational ties and trade alliances with these countries. My agenda proposes establishing three universities: the Fayrouz University in Sinai, Shali University in Siwa and Africa University in Aswan. The Africa University in Aswan will offer student exchange programs between Egypt and Nile Basin countries. Our resources to achieve this are businesses such as Citadel Capital which has investments in the Nile Basin countries. We can build on this relationship and stop demeaning the Africans and reminding them of what we have done for them. The last point concerns refugees. I was fortunate to have been the first lawyer to obtain a court ruling to stop the Egyptian government from deporting two refugees. Africans used to think of Egypt as a home for liberation movements, but since 2005, when we slaughtered [African refugees] in front of Mohamed Mahmoud Mosque, this image started to change. Then we started sending back Eritrean refugees to be killed, so the image Africans have of us became very negative. [They see us as] an oppressive country that doesn’t respect refugee rights or freedoms. We need to treat refugees differently; We treat them as foreigners who pay foreigners’ fees in schools, which are very high. If they want to work, they need to register with the Ministry of Labor and get a permit; if they don’t manage to get the permit, then they work illegally. So you would have them residing in slum areas like Kilo 4.5, Manshiet Nasser and Doweika. The job opportunities available to them, even to those with high qualification, are very limited and menial. If we were a country that treated refugees humanely, it would make a great difference to our relations with them. We would become more important to them than Israel. Sadly, we’ve become a passageway for Nile Basin residents to cross over to Israel. Q Speaking of Israel, do you feel we need to revisit relations with them? A  We have a peace treaty with Israel, and we are committed to this treaty as long as they are. If they breach it, then we will have no choice but to defend ourselves. There are other economic treaties like the gas or QIZ treaties. If I find that these treaties aren’t in my interest then I can just cancel them. As for the 30-year old peace treaty, it needs revision when it comes to Egypt’s sovereignty over its borders especially given that history has shown that we have never attacked — on the contrary, we were sometimes attacked. At the same time, we support the Palestinians’ rights to decide their own destiny and get their full rights. This siege on Gaza needs to stop. Palestinian rights are an issue of crucial concern to all Egyptians, and any upcoming president needs to tackle it. Q What about economic ties with Israel, how are planning on dealing with the issue? A Concerning the natural gas deal with Israel, I don’t believe the Egyptian citizen should be paying more than the Israeli citizen for Egyptian gas. The same goes for Spain and Jordan. Q So what you are saying is that it is not about Israel per se? A  We need to evaluate if the QIZ agreement has been useful to Egypt or not. We also need to consider if we will always need to have Israeli products in our markets to be able to enter the American market. If the US market remains difficult to enter and comes with political pressures like these, why don’t we turn to African markets? They might not give me the same profit, but they might give us a bigger role in exporting which will cover the profits I need to make.   Q So is it a matter of principle to reject any economic ties with Israel, or just those that we don’t really benefit from? A  No, when it comes to foreign relations, I can’t say this. But I can at least say that the time of secretive deals is gone; Secretive deals only work with submissive peoples who don’t have democracy. For those who do, the people need to decide their destiny. Q And what about our relationship with the United States? A  The US is a pivotal state that we can’t ignore, but like our relations with African countries, the US also needs to understand that the relationship between us has to be equal. The limits should be drawn at interfering in our foreign and economic policies. Egypt should also play the role it used to play with the Non-Aligned Countries — the developing countries that are trying to catch with major industrial countries like Brazil, India and Malaysia. This is our natural position and we have the diplomatic skills needed to put Egypt in its proper position on that map. Q Maybe more importantly, what is your stand regarding US aid? A  US aid needs to stop. It is taking a political turn that it shouldn’t be taking. Besides, it isn’t that much and on the contrary, it stipulates that you must buy US products, so in a way, we are returning the money to their market. Q And how do you feel about reestablishing ties with Iran? A  We need new alliances; the situation can’t stay the same as it has been. We need Iran and Turkey, but the Iranian situation is delicate because its sensitivity has to do with the Arab countries’ right to face Iran and how worried they might be about [reestablishing this relationship]. But I am not for letting the relationship continue as cold as it has been under Hosni Mubarak’s regime. It should develop but keeping in mind the Arab nations’ rights. Q You are a leftist candidate, and there are other leftist candidates in the race. Do you think this might split the votes for the leftist movement? A  Of course. My ideology is leftist, but I am not backed by any party. I have proposed that not only the leftists unite, but other political powers as well.  I have told Abd El Moneim Abolfotoh, Abou El Ezz El Hariri, Hesham Bastawisy, Hamdeen Sabahy and Ayman Nour that I wish they would unite. [At the time this interview was conducted, Nour was still in the running but has since been disqualified. See Elections Timeline (p. xxx) for more on this] They have until April 26 — when the final list of candidates will be announced — to unite. After that the campaigning begins. I wish they would unite and put forth one candidate, because this will be important for the Revolution. Q So you would withdraw your candidacy if others united? A  I wouldn’t back down for anybody else, but the revolution deserves sacrifice. If those five names  unite, I will back down. I wouldn’t even want to be included in the presidential council. But I wouldn’t back down if any other candidate asks me to align with them. Just to be clear: I am only referring to those five names so the unity has meaning. If we remain divided, then I will continue the race. Q You have said that we should fight Omar Suleiman’s presidential bid even through armed defense.  A  I said kifah mosalah (armed defense) but the audience clapped and didn’t hear the rest of the sentence, kifah mosalah bel akhlak (defense armed with virtue). [At press time, Omar Suleiman had also been disqualified from presidential elections.] But it isn’t about the rest of the sentence. I said we adhere to the revolution’s peacefulness, but anyone who proposed Omar Suleiman is playing with fire. They are fooling the simple-minded people, just like they did with the constitutional declaration when they told people to vote in favor of the amendments because they would lead to stability and development. It is the same with Omar Suleiman, they are fooling the simple-minded to believe that he will provide security and he will unite the revolutionaries and the Islamists. They don’t realize that this is all an illusion, or that this means shedding, again, blood on the Egyptian streets. I was trying to shock voters and make them face the truth, to tell them not to imagine that Omar Suleiman will achieve security, because he won’t. He will transform it into battles on the Egyptian streets. Q So you are not for violence under any circumstances then? A  Of course not, unless it is for self-defense. I am against initiating violence or the use of weapons. But we need to view things in the right context — what happened was playing with fire. Q The most pressing problem of the Egyptian economy right now is the budget deficit. What immediate procedure will you take to solve this problem if you become president?  A  Private funds have to be included in the state general budget and we have to work on revising some of the contracts that were signed under the former regime. Stop the export of natural gas to Israel and Spain — even if we’ll have to pay compensations for the arbitration — because we are in dire need of the exported gas. Q Do you have hopes in retrieving the Egyptian capitals transferred abroad? A  I have hope given that we reform the office of the Attorney General by removing the Chairman himself and reforming the supervisory authorities of the state […] a joint committee should be formed to manage this portfolio including the ministries of foreign affairs, justice and the Popular Campaign for Retrieving Egypt’s Wealth. Q Other than US aid, what do you think of foreign loans? A  It can be a necessity in some cases, but I hope we don’t resort to this unless there is an urgent need and on the condition that the loan doesn’t come with political or economic conditions. Q You contributed to recovering some of the enterprises that had been privatized and some people think that this trend is discouraging to foreign investments.  What’s your comment?   A  Things are not that simple. There is a big difference between the Mubarak regime and the people who revolted to retrieve these privatized assets.  All the issued verdicts explain the extent of waste of public funds and the absence of the concepts of transparency and equal opportunities even between investors. Most of these contracts were concluded by direct order at ridiculous prices and with conditions that ravaged the rights of the Egyptian people. Some businessmen are talking about arbitration but I don’t think they’ll win if Egypt argues the cases under criminal law in order to reveal what really happened in these deals. I believe that a corrupt regime brings along corrupt investors, a serious regime will respect everyone’s liberties and rights and will build a civil state that respects the rule of the law. This will be encouraging and attractive to investment. Q What are the direct messages by which we can encourage investors? A  Establishing the state of institutions; we need to take a number of important measures such as ending the state of emergency, the rule of the army, changing the law of the judiciary and restructuring the Ministry of Interior. Egypt won’t have a problem with investments once we achieve political stability for investments to start flowing in on the condition that we guarantee the rule of the law. Q How are you planning to  respond to workers’ demands?   A  Workers’ demands are very simple but unfortunately they are over-exaggerated by the media. I met with Bishay Steel workers whose demands are very simple: the starting salary is LE 500, while they want it to become equal to the salaries of neighboring Ezz Steel. Moreover, they produce 1.2 million tons per year while Ezz produces 690,000 tons. We need respect to work standards, we need real contracts and we need to respect syndical liberties. Everyone who works in heavy industries — especially steel — is entitled to a meal and one liter of milk per day; instead they are given a LE 3 meal stipend for example. There are no risk allowances while they stand in front of very high temperature smelting furnaces. Their demands are simple and only require businessmen giving up the idea of sacrificing workers’ rights to make profits. We need to associate the guarantees and incentives for investment with labor intensive industries, we need to associate them with work standards and respect labor, environment and consumer rights. Q What does it take? Changing the law or finding the mechanisms to implement it?  A  More than that; first of all, we need to influence the business community’s mentality to understand the importance of making workers feel secure about their jobs so they give more. This is more important than a law that can be circumvented. True, the employer gives the worker a salary but it’s also true that the worker creates profits for the employer, so we have to look at the relation as that of partnership, we need mechanisms for negotiations, we need mutual recognition of each other’s rights. Q Unemployment has reached 12% now in Egypt. How do you intend to solve this problem especially with the modest qualifications of manpower in Egypt? A  Unfortunately, neither businessmen nor the state have paid attention to education and training. They were responsible for setting up transformative training programs to raise workers’ qualifications. The question is; will the Egyptian worker, when sufficiently trained, deliver like his counterparts around the world? Some people conclude that the Egyptian worker actually works half an hour/day by dividing the gross national product (GNP)  by the number of workers. This is not true because it is unfair. I was representing the workers of Ain Sokhna port that was acquired by Dubai World Ports in negotiations for a share of the profits that reached $85 million (LE 513 million) that year and the company refused. The international average rate of containers loading and unloading is 28 containers/hour.  On paper, the company requires workers to process 20 containers/hour while they actually handle 52 which is almost double the average international rate. They work at over-capacity to the extent that the company that owns the cranes told them to slowdown so as not to risk damaging the cranes. Egyptian workers have the potential and capacities and provided they are given the chance and their due rights, their output will improve. Q One of the main problems of the lower income classes is housing. What do you intend to do with illegal housing and housing projects for the poor?  A  I call it unorganized housing. The problem worsened ever since the state started paying more attention to luxurious housing. Over and above, the rent of such miserable apartments can reach LE 600 while the worker’s salary can be as low as LE 1,000.  The solution for the worker would be to move into a shack in the cemeteries for instance so as to cut transportation costs from LE 15-20 to LE 2 a day. That’s how unorganized housing started. I believe we need to work on two issues; developing the people and the place. The development model I’m championing was carried out in Egypt only once in Zienhom – El-Sayeda Zienab. It has became an inhabitable place for the middle class. We need justice when it comes to basic services, infrastructure and schools, that’s why development has to involve people. Meanwhile, national housing simply requires investment, but the concept of national housing has to change because 40-65 square meter apartments — in my opinion — are economically futile in addition to being inhumane. If we build 100 sqm apartments we will be respecting the specifications of suitable housing and they will be more economic in the long run because as families get bigger, they will need larger spaces. Why then should we seek partial solutions all the time?  The larger investment that is required is infrastructure and utilities rather than the housing. Those 60 sqm apartments were referred to as subsidized housing, instead of being sold at the fair price of LE 75,000 — profit included — they were sold at LE 275,000 as the state turned these projects into commercial entities rather than maintaining their social aspect. Property developers would announce their youth housing project while also setting up a mortgage finance company which charges compound interests, which result in this price hike. Q The revolution broke out demanding liberties but most importantly a decent life for citizens, which means services, education, health care, infrastructure etc.  How can we get the necessary funding for services and utilities?  A  We used to have a good cooperative sector but we ‘slaughtered’ it. The cooperatives are among the social formats that revive the possibility of effective team work. If we create the proper political and legislative environment to develop cooperatives in Egypt they will accomplish a lot. We need to apply the alternative village system by allowing land reclamation incentives in the desert hinterland. We can earmark land for reclamation through cooperatives that farmers and other agricultural entities would invest their money in. We need to encourage people to ‘own’ so that they work. I can claim that if we start working on the alternative village strategy and give land to the farmers in the real sense, this will encourage them to pour capitals and investments. As the revolution proved its success. many Egyptians living abroad were getting ready to come back with billions proposed for the cultivation of wheat so Egypt would stop importing it. Siwa needs nothing but political will; Nubia is the most fertile land in the world, why don’t we cultivate that? There are many ideas that need society consensus and political will. Q With all the current instability, how do you see the future of tourism in Egypt?  A  It’s a very important sector that creates a large number of jobs and generates income and needs to be activated further. The idea of abandoning beach tourism is not reasonable — even Turkey, which is under Islamic rule has not abandoned beach tourism. We need all forms of tourism in Egypt: beaches, therapy, sports, conferences etc, and we have a fertile environment that qualifies Egypt to become among the most important international tourist destinations. We have wasted a great part of our tourism legacy. Moreover, we need to be cautious when dealing with foreign tour guides: tourism is a vital sector that introduces Egypt’s identity and history, so what should be said needs revision. Q In your program you spoke of the three sectors of economy, private, cooperative and public but you didn’t draw a clear industrial strategy? What do you think about the privatization program and the industrial policy of the former regime?  A  First of all, privatization was put on hold when Mubarak was still in office, so nobody can claim that I want to abandon it.  It was on hold because it pinned us down, so to speak. There were returns on development in the past but the manner of distributing them was unfair and limited to a specific class; only 5% of the population got 85% of the returns. Businessmen are aware of and accept that the state should own part of the enterprises on the condition that it doesn’t call it public sector. Why don’t we have joint projects between the state and the private sector? The Egyptian Kuwaiti Holding Company had acquired 27,000 feddans, in addition to seizing 11,000 at LE 200 per feddan (LE 0.045 piaster per square meter). When we filed a case against the company, it put forward a reconciliation request of $7 billion. This is one contract — if we revise contracts, investors won’t go away, they already know that those prices were not fair and to make the deal fair they’ll have to pay money. This is what Al-Sulaimaneya owners did. Q What national projects are you putting forward in your program to revive the economy? A  I’m suggesting the establishment of qualified agricultural areas around which we can establish industrial areas; Sinai, Siwa, the area that spans from Asiut to Helwan and south of the High Dam. We can also operate the harbor of Abu Ramada in Halayeb and turn it to a southern portal into Africa and it be a very important international harbor linking between Asia and Africa. I don’t think it’s difficult to induce progress if we crack down on the networks of corruption.